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Ops Area: Robert Wilton, Warren Kumari | 2016-Nov-07 —  
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IETF-113 sidrops minutes


Minutes

minutes-113-sidrops-00 minutes



          sidrops 113
          Friday 25 March 2021
          11:30 UTC
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e211IkY_ic
          Agenda
          1. Chair slides -
          Chris Morrow
          Chris handed over the mike to Allison Mankin, ombudsteam
          IETF. Allison explained that the ombudsteam received quite a number
          of cases from people who are concerned and feel uncomfortable with the
          discussions in sidrops.
          Allison reminded us of the Code of Conduct. There
          is a need for more respect and care.
          Warren added that he never had
          any code of conduct issues in any of the working groups where he is an
          AD for.
          Lars-Johan Liman: I would like to add one other recommendation
          that has saved me a few times, and that is when you feel upset about
          something that someone has written, and you write an answer, do that,
          but donÕt send it. Let is sit there for a couple of hours, go back,
          have a cup of coffee, read it again and you may find you might want to
          change a few words here and there, or change the entire tone of the
          message.
          Warren: Yes, and if the main discussions are between two
          or three people, and there is more than two or three e-mails a day,
          you might want to say stop and take a step back and ask yourself if you
          really should be having this discussion right now.
          Allison: We, as the
          ombudsteam will continue to monitor these cases, so do us a favour and
          keep reading the code of conduct and think about how to be good to each
          other.
          Warren: If someone is feeling stress or attacked, feel free to
          mention it to the chairs and feel free to mention it to me.
          2. Job
          Snijders - Update on Resource Signed Checklist (RSC) and rpki-client
          https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-sidrops-sidrops-rsc-00
          
          Jeff Haas: A quick operational question; Is there any long term concern
          about adding a large number of objects to the RPKI system and impacts on
          the various applications that use it?
          Job Snijders: It is very important
          to know that RSC files are distributed outside the global RPKI repository
          system. To illustrate what that means exactly: ROAs or CRLs, or manifest
          files are distributed inside the global repository system, so if you
          use rsync or RRDP, those are the files you pull into the system, but
          RSC files are not distributed through that means. They are distributed
          in a one-to-one fashion. So I could generate an RSC file, e-mail it to
          you and the global participants in the ecosystem would never know that
          I generated one and sent it to you. So there is no burden on the global
          system.
          Warren Kumari: What is the relation between this draft and ÒRPKI
          has no identityÓ, it feels like there is a close relation.
          Job Snijders:
          The relationship has been noted in the RSC draft itself. The RSC draft
          references the Òno identityÓ draft and the RSC draft explains that RSC
          files cannot be used to confirm identity. All it does is it confirms
          that somebody has possession of the private keys and the resources with
          which itÕs signed are subordinate to the certificate authority. So from
          my perspective there is no conflict.
          Ruediger Volk: Referencing back
          to Jeffs question about what the load is on the general distribution
          mechanism, I was surprised by your request for revocation tooling,
          which quite obviously will have a need on the distribution system.
          Job
          Snijders: The only load on the global system is if you revoke an RSC,
          the serial is appended to the CRL of that CA. So, per RSC that youÕre
          revoking youÕre adding a few bytes to a CRL. But then again, the RSC
          files could be short-lived. This is something weÕll have to figure out
          in the wild.
          3. Ben Maddison - Discard Origin Authorization (DOA)
          https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-113-sidrops-sidrops-doa/
          
          Jeff Haas: I have not read your draft. My question is: Is this
          intended to address RTHV adjacent AS.
          Ben Maddison: That the purpose
          of the Peer-AS ID field. The default behaviour is that this will
          not allow transit for RTVH routes, but if you add transit of one of
          your providers to that list of peer-AS IDs, thatÕs a signal to the
          receiver that you have authorised that transit and it should matched
          and accepted.
          4. Ignas Bagdonas - BGPsec performance scalability
          https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-113-sidrops-sidrops-bgpsec-scalability/
          
          Sriram Kotikalapudi: We did some studies with caching the signatures
          that have been verified during the signature verification on the updating
          cache segments of the AS path, the signatures that you have verified and
          next time the same update or another update that has a common AS path
          segment with the previous one you can make use of the cache so that
          is another way of improving the performance. Perhaps you have taught
          of it?
          Ignas Bagdonis: Yes, I did. This is actually contrary to the
          recommended practices of using elliptic signatures. You can do this only
          if your random number is stable and that leaks your key. ThatÕs not the
          right thing to do. Caching is possible, and rearranging a few things here
          and there, you can cache and thatÕs the point. However, signature signing
          and verification for AS path longer than, in this particular instance 4
          or 5 hops, becomes less computationally expensive than calculating the
          hash. And that is the problem. So youÕre not limited by the performance of
          elliptic curve as such, you are limited by the overall performance of the
          memory system.
          Job Snijders: You asked: Do we care? I can indicate, just
          like in IEPG, I do care. And I do think now is a good time to start work
          on this. I think version zero will give us valuable operational feedback
          on how it works in the wild, provided that BGPsec router key publication
          becomes easily accessible to operators, and from there migrating to a
          performance enhanced version seems a very logical and organic way to
          further the development of this protocol.
          5) Sriram Kotikalapudi
          - ASPA Verification Algorithms: Enhancements and RS Considerations
          https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-sidrops-aspa-verification-procedures-01
          
          Ben Maddison: IÕm a little confused by the route server handling. What
          is broken prior to this update. There is no difference from the
          perspective of AS4, if the route server is transparent, it can be
          ignored all together. And if itÕs a non-transparent route server,
          then itÕs indistinguishable from a transit provider. All that needs
          to happen in order for AS4 to correctly detect this as a leak, is AS1
          needed to create some ASPA with any content, as long as it doesnÕt
          have AS3 in it. And thatÕs what the previous version of the algorithm
          said. I find the additional corner cases a complication rather than a
          simplification.
          Sriram Kotikalapudi: If you focus on, here weÕre looking
          at AS4, from AS4 points of view, what you said is correct. It doesnÕt
          need to know about the presence of the route server being transparent
          or not, it needs the ASPAs that the tools RS clients should have with
          any ASN. But if you look at from the point of view from AS3, when AS3
          RS client is invalidating AS, then it helps for it to see that AS1 has
          registered an ASPA including the RS ASN in it. And that is one reason
          toÉit is not necessary to include the RS ASN in the ASPA, like you said,
          because they are already assuming that the non-transparent route server
          is a rarity. However, in cases when the RS is a non-transparent or even
          otherwise, it helps the route server client. To AS4 it doesnÕt matter,
          but for the route server client AS3 it matters to some extend and to have
          the ASN of the route server in the ASPA.
          Ben Maddison: I think itÕs
          important to realise that AS3 knows itÕs speaking to a route server. I
          donÕt think that having corner cases in the protocol helps anyone. I
          think itÕs more complication. And the validation that AS3 applies, can
          take into account its local knowledge. I think this makes the validation
          procedure harder to understand.
          Alexander Azimov: The problem appears
          in a slightly different topology. Imagine, on this drawing, that AS4
          is a customer. And it received a prefix from AS3, and in this case,
          if AS1 hasnÕt signed AS2 as its provider, it will treat such a route as
          a route leak. So, one hop away from the non-transparent IXP, we cannot
          distinguish if it is a route leak or if it is a non-transparent IXP.
          Ben
          Maddison: Are you talking about the case where the IXP route server
          is non-transparent?
          Alexander Azimov: Yes. And a slightly different
          drawing where AS4 is a customer of AS1.
          Ben Maddison: In that case,
          we embrace the fact that the route server is a transit
          provider.
          Alexander Azimov: I agree with you. In this direction, I had a
          plan to change the document.
          Sriram Kotikalapudi: To what you already
          said; for the non-transparent case, it is not so rare. Ben can you send
          an e-mail to the list?
          6) Job Snijders - RPKI & Certificate Transparency
          https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-sidrops-sidrops-ct-00
          
          Ties de Kock: I like the idea of CT, and I see a lot of value in
          applying CT to EE certificates, like the Resource Signed Checklist
          because itÕs very hard to observe objects and to know what was actually
          published and unless you have CT on EE certificates, you cannot show
          an important attack in RPKI, which is the omission of objects from the
          view that you present to somebody. It is critical that EE certificates
          are included.
          Job Snijders: It would be cool if EE certificates can
          be included in the CT log infrastructure, and IÕm not excluding that
          path, but to reduce the scope and get somewhere, I think itÕs great if
          we start with CAs. And maybe add more to it.
          Ties de Kock: I donÕt
          see much benefit in removing the code path where for a CA certificate,
          you submit it to the log, incorporate the RSC and for EE certificates
          you donÕt. WeÕd have to prototype this. If you want the Relying Parties
          to check CT, they will need to check the attestations that are in the CA
          certificates. Which means that when you want to create a CA certificate,
          you need to get enough responses from qualified logs (at least in the web
          context) and that implies that log availability causes an upper bound on
          CA availability, and more brittleness in the RPKI scares me a lot, being
          an actual CA operator. How do you think about this risk?
          Job Snijders:
          I consider RP implementations, at this point of time out of scope. UPs
          are believers and they just absorb RRDP and rsync. Separately, we would
          create verifiers, maybe based on existing RP coded bases, and they would
          absorb the logs and maybe use net monitoring alerts. An RP in the RPKI
          context is a believer, not a verifier.
          Koen van Hove: In WebPKI, the
          end game of CT, is that if a CA really misbehaves, we remove it from our
          trust, and we no longer trust this CA. What do you see as the end game
          for RPKI? There is currently no alternatives for the RIRs.
          Job Snijders:
          If an RIR misbehaves, I will remove them from mu truster.
          Koen van Hove:
          So the goal is to see if an RIR misbehaves?
          Job Snijders: The first
          call is to engage with the RIR and confirm with them the situation
          and request an RFO. But if the same type of incident happens over
          and over again, or if there are systematic issues, it could motivate
          some operators to remove temporarily or permanently cease that Trust
          Anchor. So the goal of transparency is to be able to hold organisations
          accountable. Distrusting the root is the end of the process.
          Russ
          Housley: I have real problems with this work. My concern is that RPKI,
          unlike WebPKI, was constructed so that the CA is authoritative for the
          resources that it issues. For the WebPKI, all of the roots are able to
          do anything with any aspect of the name space. When we started working
          on this, the Internet Architecture Board suggested IANA ran 0/0 and
          the RIRs would be subordinates. To accommodate easier transfers amongst
          the RIRs, each of the RIRs became equal roots for 0/0. I argue that you
          donÕt need this (CT), if you go back to the first model.
          Job Snijders:
          I should clarify, in the RPKI ecosystem there are 22.000 CAs. The ones
          I think CT should apply to are the RIRs that have the 0/0 certificates
          and their intermediate operational certificates. The moment this bounces
          to an LIR, they can only harm themselves.
          Ruediger Volk: Following
          Russ, some of the basics of WebPKI and RPKI are very different. You
          should keep in mind that in RPKI, CA and identity are not really the
          same thing, so looking at WebPKI is not the most valuable thing to
          do.
          Establishing tracking mechanisms and monitoring for what is in the
          RPKI, is important. For resource holders, an independent signalling of
          what the global view of their resources is. WebPKI is directing you to
          bad tracks. I donÕt want to dismiss this effort overall, but I donÕt
          think itÕs heading in the right direction.
          Ben Maddison: We need to
          distinguish better between signing events and publication events. They
          happen close together in time, but they are not the same. This is about
          signing events that are not visible though any theoretical version of
          the publication system. CT is about the signing events. Also, I know and
          trust that my RIR does things with the right intentions. But that is not
          where the chain of trust needs to stop. I need to be able to demonstrate
          to a third party when the RPKI causes some substantial outage for one
          of my customers. Having some version of CT allows me to use this in
          a more robust fashion.
          7) Koen van Hove - RPKI off the beaten happy path
          https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-sidrops-rpki-off-the-beaten-happy-path-00
          (1.52.16)
          Job Snijders: I think that Publish in Parent is a technique
          that helpt the entire ecosystem. One of the fears is that a sibling CA
          of yours can do something that somehow knocks you out, and for instance
          in the partial RPKI data example you listed that if CA 3 has an issue,
          CA 4 disappearsÉa lot of scenarios are alleviated if Publish in Parent
          is used. For this reason and other reasons, we as ecosystem should strive
          to encourage the default setting is ÒPublish in your ParentÓ. Because it
          makes life easier. If you publish in the parent, the parent can -out of
          band -apply some restrictions. Like with e-mail, in the SMTP protocol
          itÕs not encoded that I can only send you up to 10 MB, but if I try to
          send you a 10MB e-mail, your mail server might say itÕs too large. This
          is local policy, that each parent repository can apply local policy as
          it sees fit.
          Koen van Hove: You make a good point, but then you get a
          first class citizen (publish in parent) and a second class citizen as
          Delegated. I think that thatÕs a consequence of that solution that people
          need to be aware of.
          Tim Bruijnzeels: I think this is an example of a
          number of issues that may occur, and the question how we should deal with
          them. Also, to be a bit more specific, my feeling is that there are things
          to be discussed with regards to these suggestions Job just made. I think
          there might be work there, but the current reality is that parent CAs can
          only be reactive. I think we should look at more pro-active measures. If
          we want to do things with repositories, that implies that we need to look
          at the publication protocol. It also implies that we may need to think
          about what trusted repositories are. The current reality is that we can
          only be reactive.
          Ruediger Volk: Thinking of bad characteristics of
          rsync, it has been identified as a danger spot and is being replaced. For
          the volumetric attacks that you described, I think they will blow up
          earlier than they hit the routers. What you really should be checking
          is your first slide, where you only told the ROAs that certain CAs are
          supposed to publish, and you did now show what resource sets the CAs were
          holding. The issue that you constructed, depended on the unusual idea that
          the delegation of resources was not hierarchical and overlapping between
          siblings. The monitoring and tracking system should show that. And the
          policies, that this should not be happening when running your registry,
          have not been formally raised, but very well understood.
          Koen van Hove:
          I want to point out that this was based on a real-life example which is
          currently in the APNIC and IDNIC relationship. It doesnÕt happen a lot,
          but it happens.
          Ruediger Volk: That boils down to Russ his previous
          remark, about having single or multiple roots. And not having clear and
          formal policies about how the resources are managed under the overlapping
          roots.
          Ben Maddison:I think this is an important problem. We need to
          be clear on what the action we take is. IÕm not convinced that any of
          the actions we take against the potential DoS-es that exist should be
          changes to a protocol. I think we need to be much clearer on how Relying
          Parties are dealing with placing limits on their willingness to traverse
          trees and lots of directories and objects. ItÕs not necessarily the
          case that they need to implement the same protection mechanisms. But
          it would be good if there was some collaboration between Relying Party
          implementers to document what recognised attack vectors there are and
          how they deal with them. This could be an informational document.
          Jared
          Mauch: This reminds me of the early days of usenet news. You would have
          these files and they would get transmitted over this protocol. One of
          the companies that decided to build commercial software to run a usenet
          news server, found out that leveraging the underlying operating system
          was actually inefficient. The data is just still data, it doesnÕt mean
          an implementation should just look at: Do we abstract this out and store
          it in our own internal data store, optimised for that use case. Maybe
          that historical context is of use in this. We should be looking beyond
          the actual file systems.
          Koen van Hove: I agree, and for RRDP a lot
          of implementations already do that. The rsync protocol makes it more
          difficult to achieve that. But rsync is still a requirement.
          Ties
          de Kock: We had the initial reports about these issues and we resolved
          parts of these attack vectors. It got a lot harder to do a Dos attack
          on all Relying Parties worldwide. However, you also showed that if you
          want to attack a specific instance, you can still so that. Because itÕs
          really hard to set these limits in a way that in a recursive case, which
          still needs to be quite wide, because some CAs are quite wide, you cannot
          abuse it. So, in my opinion we need some work on that in sidrops. So that
          at least relying party instances can detect it when the administrative
          domain changes when traversing the tree. For some entities it may be
          logical that they have an extremely large repository, while for a non-RIR
          has less objects in there. I think we should continue investigating this
          issue.
          Warren closes the meeting and thanks the speakers.
          
          



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